Approved
(Copies of Agendas and Minutes of the Community Council are held at Fife Council’s Local Office, St Mary’s Place and the Town Library, Church Square. Those from late 1997 on are on line at http://www.louisxiv.demon.co.uk/standrewscc/)
Chair: Cllr Bill Sangster
Donald Macgregor, unopposed (Proposed: Murdo Macdonald)
Donald Macgregor
Donald Macgregor proposed 3, but did not have a seconder.
Pete Lindsay proposed 2, seconded Keith McCartney
2 Vice chairs
| Who (proposer) | Votes |
|---|---|
| Murdo Macdonald (Joe Peterson) | 14 |
| Ian Goudie (Pete Lindsay) | 9 |
| Penny Uprichard (Dennis Macdonald) | 8 |
| Joe Peterson (Murdo Macdonald) | 6 |
Murdo Macdonald
Ian Goudie
Pete Lindsay, unopposed (proposed Murdo Macdonald, second Ken Fraser)
Pete Lindsay
Bruce Ryan, unopposed (proposed Pete Lindsay, second Murdo Macdonald)
Bruce Ryan
Donald Macgregor took over the chair
Murdo Macdonald, 2nd Penny Uprichard, proposed Ewen Sparks be co-opted as a full member immediately.
Richard Douglas (2nd Pete Lindsay) proposed advertising the vacancy through a letter in the Citizen before adopting a procedure such as was used at the last co-options in June.
Joe Peterson (2nd Chris Lesurf) was not happy at people putting themselves forward for co-option after the event; where were they for the elections, he asked? He suggested that community council continue at 19 elected members and only seek a 20th if it became necessary for workload, waiting a couple of months to see how things were going.
Voting: in accordance with the standing orders of community council the proposals were considered in reverse order as an amendment to the first proposal and an amendment to that amendment. Fortunately the Chair understood the system.
2 month delay: 5; Advert this month: 13. Advert carried forward.
Advert: 15; immediate co-option: uncounted as Murdo Macdonald conceded to the overwhelming view of the meeting.
Pete Lindsay to write
Carol Tricker said that advertising for the elections had been poor. Murdo Macdonald backed this having raised the matter with Fife Council, who had replied that they had met their legal obligations with an advert in the Citizen, giving formal notice. Pete Lindsay said that due to pressure of other community council business he’d put out less advertising by community council than he’d intended. Donald Macgregor and Dennis Macdonald had had letters published in the citizen on the election in time for people to stand. Though a Publicity Committee had been set up after the last, or perhaps previous, elections with a view to organising election publicity, as well as other profile raising, its membership had fallen to one. Joe Peterson thought that there had been plenty of coverage in the last few months as a result of the delay to allow an up-to-date electoral register to be used. Anyone unaware of a forthcoming community council election was paying insufficient attention.
Merchants’ Association: Ewen Sparks accepted as nominated (non-voting) member (acceptance proposed Donald Macgregor, 2nd Penny Uprichard, none against).
Madras Whole School Board: continue invitation to two representatives (proposed Donald Macgregor, 2nd Murdo Macdonald, none against).
Meeting agreed to continue established practice with the committees.
| 200 Club Convenor | Richard Douglas |
| Arms Convenor | Murdo Macdonald |
| Common Good Fund | Ken Crichton, Chris Lesurf [1] |
| Community Safety Panel | Ken Crichton |
| Cosmos Management Committee | George Davidson |
| East Sands Leisure Centre Advisory Group | Bette Christie |
| Fairtrade Town Campaign | Bruce Ryan |
| Golfing Liaison | Murdo Macdonald, Dennis Macdonald, Joe Peterson |
| Greenbelt Forum | Penny Uprichard, Richard Douglas, Ian Goudie |
| Ohtawara Trust | Murdo Macdonald |
| RAF Leuchars Liaison group | Dennis Macdonald, Chris Lesurf |
| St Andrews in Bloom committee | Joe Peterson |
| St Andrew’s Festival committee | Ken Crichton |
| St Andrews World Class (observer) | Joe Peterson [2] |
| St Andrew’s Day Holiday | Keith McCartney |
| Kate Kennedy Parade Committee | Richard Douglas |
Any other representatives to be determined when they next arise.
[1] procedures to be reviewed.
[2] for a limited period.
Ian Goudie was “peeved” by the new requirement for community councillors to sign a declaration that they would abide by a code of conduct set out by Fife Council. He felt that signing a declaration was an empty gesture – either one had integrity or not. He attacked Fife Council for double standards by expecting a higher level of integrity than he felt it displayed as body.
He asked if it was necessary to sign the declaration to be a fully elected community council?
He suggested sending to Fife Council Luke 41:6 “Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye when you do not notice the log which is in your own eye”.
Pete Lindsay said that while the actual terms of the code of conduct had been imposed without consultation, community council had agreed to the principle some years ago. Further, when he had raised the concerns of another community council over this requirement last year [October 04 7.3], community council had decided to take no action. He felt it was a little late now.
no action
Steve Heretick, City Councilman for the City of Portsmouth, Virginia, USA, visiting St Andrews brought greetings from the Mayor and Council of his City and gave his thanks for the welcome and hospitality he’d received in St Andrews.
Bette Christie, George Davidson, Richard Douglas, Ken Fraser, Ian Goudie, Stuart Holdsworth, Chris Lesurf, Pete Lindsay, Dennis Macdonald, Murdo Macdonald, Donald Macgregor, Keith McCartney, Patrick Marks, Elise Methven, Joe Peterson, Bruce Ryan, Carole Tricker, Penny Uprichard.
Simon Atkins
Ewen Sparks
Sheila Black, Jane Ann Liston, Frances Melville, Bill Sangster
Kier Lawson, Ken Crichton
accepted
Inspector Andy Edmonton of Fife Constabulary’s Open Golf Planning Team explained they were seeking views on what has worked well, or not, in police handling of the Open in previous years. He would not present on this year’s plans as they were at an early stage, rather was looking to incorporate feedback from community council or individuals.
Murdo Macdonald asked if there would be a park & ride scheme running from Guardbridge as there was in 2000? It was a great relief to the traffic in the town.
— Yes, it will be the same scheme that has run for the Leuchars Air Show in recent years.
Cllr Jane Ann Liston questioned the wisdom of closing the Old Guardbridge Road to pedestrians and cyclists while it is used for bus access, forcing them to use the A91 itself, a altogether busier route. Even with a proposed temporary 30mph limit she doubted the practicality of enforcement. Insp Edmonton said the exact times and natures of any restrictions were still under discussion. There would be a heavy police presence and they would certainly seek to enforce a 30mph limit. The advice he’d received from Fife Council was that it would be safer for cyclists to use the main road in a 30mph limit, travelling with the traffic, than be going against the flow of the temporary one-way bus lane which would be one way.
Anyone with an opinion or comment should contact Inspector Andy Edmonton’s team on 01334-418729 or open.golf@fife.pnn.police.uk.
Frances Humphries, resident of the Lade Braes expressed her extreme disappointment with the police response in St Andrews. There is a problem with groups of young people “rampaging” up and down the Lade Braes, she said. Last Friday night she had witnessed a group kick down her neighbour’s fence; on phoning the police she was told they were too busy to attend. This is not the first time she has had such a response; as a single person, over 60, living alone she is growing fearful due to the lack of police cover.
She said she had often tried to phone about the rowdy behaviour, drinking and drugs on Lade Braes, Cockshaugh Park and Viaduct Walk but found the call centre engaged; calling 999 in frustration she was told her concerns were not an emergency and to wait for the call centre to answer.
Inspector Edmonton could not comment, not knowing the full facts, but offered to take details outwith the meeting and have someone in authority contact her with a response to her concerns.
Joe Peterson asked about police cover in the evening and at weekends. Insp Edmonton explained that numbers were not fixed but there was an overlapping shift system that had two teams of a sergeant and 5 or 6 members of staff on duty at peak times over the weekend. Though he didn’t know what else had been going on on Friday he was surprised at a “too busy” response, though calls sometimes had to be prioritised if there were multiple incidents.
Consultants have been appointed for phase 2 of the environmental improvements. They will be looking at various aspects including the state of the road and toilets.
Richard Douglas and Penny Uprichard noted that though they had initially been invited to attend meetings on the first phase as community representatives, nothing had come of this. Cllr Melville said she had pressed for community involvement but had been thwarted by the intransigence of officials who refused to comply with her requests in this.
Meeting agreed to write to express, strongly, disappointment in the lack of community involvement in the West Sands project.
Donald Macgregor
Keith McCartney took the issue of democratic representation further, asking if St Andrews issues were decided on the East Area Development Committee by the St Andrews Members, could they be outvoted by representatives of other areas? On being told they could, he asked where the democracy was in such a situation. Cllr Melville replied that in some ways East Fife had a better situation than the other two areas. At least in the east all Fife Councillors were members of the development committee; this was not the case elsewhere, so some wards in the centre and west of Fife were totally unrepresented, not just outvoted. She noted that the Labour administration of Fife were talking of having only one development committee for the whole of Fife which will make the situation worse.
Keith McCartney then asked was it not Fife Council policy to devolve responsibility for issues as locally as possible; if planning issues could be devolved to east Fife why could they not be further devolved to St Andrews?
Drew attention to the public meeting on the various Local, Structure, etc Plans, (also covered under Agenda 6.5.)
Confirmed the closed meeting with Robin Presswood, Development Services, to discuss various aspects of the Local Plan, particularly with respect to small business sites, for 7pm Monday 29 March, Town Hall.
This start this month and will affect traffic in Golf Place and North Street.
Various signs indicating lorries should not use the High Road have proved ineffective. Transportation Services are now looking to having a weight restriction order imposed.
A replacement rostrum will be provided for the official reception of ‘Kate Kennedy’. It will have other uses over the rest of the year, possibly being kept at Craigtoun like the current platform.
She is hearing an increasing number of complaints about noise from flights from Leuchars which she will be raising with Menzies Campbell MP.
Dennis Macdonald agreed that there was a problem. Joe Peterson said he accepted necessary noise from an airbase for exercises and legitimate flying, but was incredulous that the current problems were defended on the grounds that crews were practising acrobatics for the air show in September. He did not consider this to be a legitimate use of public money. Pete Lindsay commented, at length, that he found the modern Tornados quieter, or at least noisy in a less irritating way, than the Phantoms of the 70s and 80s.
Ewen Sparks again raised the dangerous state of the road surface. The potholes are forcing road users to swerve in a dangerous manner. Cllr Melville is pushing for a patching programme, pointing out to officials that the state of the road is such that repairs cannot be put off until after work at David Russell Hall has been completed.
This will be cleaned soon and the feeder pipe repaired. Patrick Marks, who lives close by, asked if anything could be done to improve the general appearance of the area? She replied that she would consult Jim Hooton, but there were limits to what could be done to pond itself with its clay floor. Murdo Macdonald added that he thought the Lade Braes as a whole was looking rather run down, indeed a ‘shambles’ in some parts.
The report will be presented to St Andrews Members at the regular St Andrews Locality Meeting, Monday 4 April. He noted that although the report had been received by Fife Council he and fellow councillors were not being allowed to see a copy. It was not to be released to the public, even Fife Councillors, yet.
He has had further meetings with officials about the proposals for Doubledykes Road giving his views on negative aspects, such as the reduction in lanes onto the roundabout; widening of pavements; speed ‘humps’. He noted that these roadworks were not subject to the planning system, they were being undertaken on the basis of a traffic order therefore the work could go ahead without consideration of local concerns.
Cllr Frances Melville added that she had asked Transportation Service if the work here could be put off because of access to the bus station and the works at Golf Place, but got nowhere.
Pete Lindsay said that while he’d not seen the plans, he did see reasons behind some of the changes, which he believed would make the roundabout area safer for pedestrians in only having to watch one lane of traffic at a time, rather than worrying about drivers trying to squeeze through into the second lane at the junctions, and with space to stand while waiting to cross. He reminded the meeting that St Andrews wasn’t just a haven for cars.
Murdo Macdonald disagreed entirely. Pedestrians were only a few paces from a crossing; that is where they should go rather than congestion being increased by more pedestrian facilities.
Ian Goudie said that Pete Lindsay was entitled to his personal view but drew attention to the community council’s official response (Appendix H) written on behalf of the planning committee by Penny Uprichard. He said that Transportation Service seemed to be out of control, ignoring local opinions and Fife Councillors. He reported that not even all the relevant officers within Transportation had been consulted over these proposals, and may have suggested modifications had they known of them in time. He added that the Scottish Executive’s Planning Advice Note 71: Conservation Area Management suggested there should be more consultation on matters such as the railings proposed for Hope Park Roundabout rather than none at all, as has happened.
Joe Peterson agreed with Pete Lindsay that safety was more important that a short delay for motorists. He felt talk of ‘congestion’ was exaggerated compared with what can be experienced in big cities. He pointed to two particular populations who would benefit from pedestrian improvements and railings controlling crossing points. There are several residences for elderly people in the immediate area of City Road some of whom do not find it easy to go out of their way to the controlled crossing; and there are the young, students, who seem to see no danger in crossing the road anywhere apart from provided crossing points. He thought opinions would change once the new layout was up and running.
Bill Sangster closed by wishing for simple plans, restricting themselves to much-needed programmes of repairs to road and footway surfaces around town.
The problems of missing covers has been raised again with Scottish Water, but still with no active response.
Joe Peterson asked when the town sign, broken free of the decorative wall at the end of the Old Guardbridge Road by Strathtyrum a few months back and discovered in a nearby hedge, would be replaced?
Cllr Bill Sangster said he understood it would be replaced in the near future, but it would do no harm for Joe Peterson to write for the Recreation Committee, who have a flowerbed at the site; he would support a call for action sooner rather than later.
Elise Methven raised a problem at Crail’s Lane; Cllr Sangster will take it up with officials to see about getting it cleaned. Keith McCartney noted that Cllr Sangster had looked into a problem at Condie Court and though there was a problem in that it was not council property it had now been cleaned up. He did say though that there was a problem throughout the centre and paricularly to the side of the town library at Logies Lane. He suggested that the street sweepers should be asked to report graffiti.
He asked for dates for the centre at the Fife Council meeting earlier in the day. Work is expected to begin in May and operation in July.
She reported from the meeting of full Fife Council earlier in the day that Fife Council Administration were not at all pleased that St Andrews Community Council had seen fit to object to one aspect of the plans, the lack of pedestrian access. She reported the Leader of the Administration, Cllr Anne McGovern, said that “... consultation does not always mean going back and asking people what they want.” Another choice quote from a member of the administration party was “The trouble with you Liberal Democrats is that you listen too much to your community councils; and they are all full of Tories“. Donald Macgregor wryly observed that only recently we were being attacked by a Tory for not being Tories [Jan 7.1.].
There was a call, as reported by Cllr Melville earlier, for one planning committee for the whole of Fife. Cllr Liston thought this might lead to longer meetings that some members of Fife Council in other areas appreciated.
She was very pleased to hear that during the recent bad weather the Meals-on-Wheels service had delivered all but four of the 1500 meals they deliver daily. Even those, they managed to contact to warn them so that alternative arrangements could be made locally.
Some people have come to her with questions over the necessity of some school closures due to the snow 24 February and 1 March. Indeed the Head of Education had asked for reports on this too. She understood that the decision was supposed to be made by the Head Teacher in consultation with senior Education Service managers. Apparently this hadn’t happened. She has asked to see the report as it pertains to St Andrews.
Still pushing for students to be allowed access to reduced rates on production of a matriculation identity card rather than having to buy a Fifestyle card. St Andrews students could get student rates at swimming pools across the country on their St Andrews matriculation card, but not in St Andrews. Fife seems to be out of step here, from her checking with other councils around the country.
Expanded on her concerns over closure of the cycle routes for the Open. Feels that cyclists are getting a raw deal as if official thinking is ‘it’s only cyclists, not anyone important, in a car...’. She does not think it is right for people using the old Guardbridge Road and the cycle track, for instance to get to work, to be endangered by being forced onto the A91. She had doubts that the temporary 30mph limit would be obeyed by everyone, not least because drivers were used to the long curve between Strathtyrum and the Petheram roundabout as a fast piece of road – a habit that would be hard to break.
She was rather disappointed that, at her meeting with various Fife Council officials to discuss co-ordination of approaches to the matter of a St Andrews Rail link, she found herself being called on to defend the idea when it was already Fife Council policy. There is still a very road-centred view in Transportation Service. Economic Development however were far more positive and seemed to see the potential. She hoped though that the community council still supported the rail link proposal and would say so clearly and forcibly in their submission.
Appendix A: 127 Market St. Elise Methven was concerned as a proprietor of a coffee and sandwich shop in South Street at the arrival of Starbucks in Market Street (the former John Smith bookshop). She felt there were too many coffee shops in St Andrews now.
Over-provision is not grounds for a planning objection. Ian Goudie suggested that concerns like this could be raised though in the Local Plan response. He recalled that there was a time when there was an outbreak of building societies. This was controlled in part by changes to the planning rules to require a certain percentage of the shop frontages in the centre to be for retail purposes. Something similar might be possible to control coffee houses. He suggested she come along to the next planning meeting to discuss possible approaches.
Richard Douglas suggested that Starbucks would need a hot food licence to operate from the premises, that would be a more appropriate route for objections on grounds of over-provision. Could community council object there?
Pete Lindsay said the community council were competent objectors for licensing; and had done so over the Shell Garage some time ago due to problems of generated late at night by excessive queues. Though competent objectors as community representatives, the community council was not a statutory consultee as in the case of planning.
Keith McCartney questioned whether it was proper for community council to involve itself in matters of a private business. He presumed that the market would see the fittest prosper, the poorest go to the wall and be replaced by another venture. Pete Lindsay thought an attack on Starbucks for being Starbucks would not be appropriate grounds for objection; there would have to be evidence of over-provision of coffee houses generally. On the other hand Joe Peterson was concerned at the arrival of another multinational at the possible expense of small individual businesses in the town. It was a local face to the worldwide concerns over ‘globalisation’. He did not think it unreasonable for community council to take a position on the arrival of managed chains squeezing local people out of business. Murdo Macdonald agreed with Keith McCartney adding that there were cycles to these things; there had been concerns at one time about the numbers of charity shops opening, taking up prime retail sites, the banks and building societies Ian Goudie mentioned, and now coffee shops. Cllr Jane Ann Liston observed that the best way to ensure small local businesses stay competitive was to patronise them rather than the multinationals and chains.
Ian Goudie explained that he had put down some very preliminary outline thoughts on a newsletter to raise awareness in the town of some of the issues being considered in the Local and Structure Plan consultations at the moment. He noted that there are six large documents out for consultation simultaneously which made it difficult for anyone to comment coherently from under a mountain of paper. The most important in his view was the Structure Plan as the other plans take their cue from that. He’d also included points of concern about the Hospital plans. He suggested that there should be detailed discussion of the issues at the next planning meeting, any interested member was welcome to attend.
Planning, Mo 14/3, 7.30pm, Local Office (St Mary’s Pl)
He suggested that if the meeting agreed that the newsletter should go ahead to inform the town, that it be delegated to the Planning Committee to proceed. Finance would be a question for delivery in particular.
Penny Uprichard spoke on her suggestion that such a major change to the town as envisaged in the Structure and Local Plan warranted extraordinary measures to make the town aware of the issues. She suggested undertaking a town-wide leaflet drop to circulate the newsletter, undertaken by members of community council personally. Pete Lindsay observed that community council had refused a similar suggestion from a local magazine recently. There was some trading of times and numbers for door-to-door deliveries. Discussion turned to paid delivery. Various speakers (Joe Peterson, Murdo Macdonald, Ian Goudie, Dennis Macdonald) agreed that the important issues raised by the Plans and other matters mentioned justified expenditure of available community council funds. No one spoke against this consensus. Ian Goudie emphasised the need for speed; a decision could not be delayed until next meeting of community council if the newsletter were to be distributed before the consultation deadline, and preferably before the public meeting organised by Fife Council for Wednesday 20th April, Madras College, Kilrymont Road.
Organisation by Planning Committee
Chris Lesurf had to leave the meeting at this point but asked anyone prepared to help on the day with this project, described in a circulated paper for the benefit of new members, to contact her as soon as possible.
9.30pm: Donald Macgregor proposed (2nd Murdo Macdonald) suspension of Standing Orders to permit consideration of urgent business remaining on the agenda.
Joe Peterson
April
Speaking for the Merchants’ Association Ewen Sparks said they were concerned about what benefits WHS designation would confer on St Andrews.
Joe Peterson said the same question had come up at the St Andrews World Class meetings he’d attended for community council; what were the benefits and disadvantages of WHS? There was no information from the proposer.
Pete Lindsay reminded the meeting that this issue was remitted to Planning previously, but pointed out that the committee was busy with the pressing matters of the local/structure plans.
(OfCom consultation) Pete Lindsay summarised the last couple of years of very poor consultation procedures by BT, leading to a blanket objection to the removal of any phone box in St Andrews by Community Council, though acknowledging that not all were actually needed these days. No one volunteered so...
... Pete Lindsay to write
April
April
April
Suggest later to FC due to consultation workload
Pete Lindsay to write
April
Joe Peterson
April
April
Pass any suggestions through Pete Lindsay
Noted that he had a backlog of community council work and had come perilously close failing to get meeting papers out on time for the last couple of months due to the size of agenda and other papers. Thanked Bruce Ryan for offering to help with some outstanding letters.
He suggested a review of the secretary’s workload was in order; he’d come forward with some suggestions when (if) he had time.
There being no more urgent business the meeting closed just after 9.45pm