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Royal Burgh of St Andrews Community Council

Draft Minutes - June 2000

for approval

Chair: Murdo Macdonald.

1. Attendance

Community Councillors: Maries Cassells, Ken Crichton, Ken Fraser, Ian Goudie, John Landon, Helen Lawrie, Chris Lesurf, Pete Lindsay, Dennis Macdonald, Murdo Macdonald, Lindsay Murray, Joseph Peterson, Frank Riddell, Archie Strachan, Cynthia Tero, Chris Young.

Students' Association: none

Co-opted: Bill Sangster

Fife Councillors: Sheila Hill, Jane Ann Liston, Frances Melville, Jane Hunter-Blair

Apologies - Donald Macgregor, Hugh Gray, Steve Durrant.

2. Minutes of May 2000.

Hugh Gray could not recall suggesting "conceding dual use" between cyclists & pedestrians on Canongate. Meeting agreed that his name should be removed from the remark in the minutes.

Amended minutes were agreed.

3.1 Police - Sgt Graham Roberts answered questions

3.1.1. Parking - Joe Peterson asked what the rules are on parking by commercial construction/delivery vehicles; are they exempted?

A - vehicles directly working on a building are permitted as is un-/loading. Traffic Wardens have some discretion to determine whether such parking is actually necessary - unloading operations actually taking place - and will suggest a move if not.

3.1.2. Beach Parties - Lindsay Murray asked about problems on the beaches, referring to end-of-term incidents.

A - there were some problems with litter & behaviour with the large numbers present on the Thursday night, though there were no complaints directly about the parties, problems were more with behaviour of people leaving them. Sgt Robertson noted that not all those involved in the parties were students.

There are enquiries ongoing into the destruction of ~£1000 worth of fencing apparently used to fuel one of the party fires.

As local member Frances Melville noted that the number of requests for beach parties had vastly increased recently. One in particular run by the university Bute Medical Society had got out of control, but there is a general problem with litter and broken glass. It had therefore been decided by Community Services who licence (and tidy up after) such events, in consultation with the police, to ban further beach parties.

Murdo Macdonald felt that students and others should be able to relax and enjoy themselves after exams and regretted that a few should spoil it for the majority.

Maries Cassells asked what policing there was on the beaches and what comprises 'breach of the peace'?

A - there are no extra staff to cover the beaches; just the normal duty shift. The problems with the parties tend to be as the party-goers make their way back into town.

Breach of the peace is a very wide definition, basically behaviour that alarms or annoys any other person, such as for instance a police officer, who witnesses it.

3.1.3. Pipes - Lindsay Murray expressed outrage that a shop on South Street was selling what she described as drug-taking equipment, which had been brought to her attention by pupils at her school.

A - it is not illegal to sell such things, it is illegal to use it for the purpose.

3.1.4. Minimum Speed limits - Ken Crichton wanted to know what could be done about slow-moving tractors on the roads.

A - tractor drivers can and have been prosecuted for careless and inconsiderate driving for not pulling over when a queue builds up behind them.

3.1.5. Skateboarding in Church Square - (June 3.1.1.) Sgt Roberts confirmed that it is not illegal. Skateboarders could be asked to move on if they become a hazard. A large gathering might lead to a breach of the peace.

Cynthia Tero asked if skateboarding on the road, in traffic was illegal?

A - No, it is not illegal to endanger oneself.

3.1.6. Litter - Lindsay Murray asked whether litterers could be subject to fines and how should they be tackled if seen?

A - yes, quite sizeable fines could be imposed by the courts. The sergeant could not advise confronting offenders in case of an aggressive reaction - better to report an offender to the police if their details are known.

3.2. St Andrews Bus Station Manager, Douglas King, answered questions:

3.2.1. Bus Station Toilets - Chris Lesurf asked the status of the men's toilets and John Landon asked about their opening hours.

A - renovation work is under way and should be complete in about two weeks. They will be open 8am-6pm, closing in the evening to reduce opportunities for vandalism, which has been a problem.

3.2.2. Rail-Bus links - Pete Lindsay noted the loss of the ScotRail service to Edinburgh at 8.17am, which has a connecting bus, while the 8.44am which replaces it does not - would a connecting bus be introduced? Murdo Macdonald suggested a dedicated shuttle service to meet trains at Leuchars.

A - there are 4 buses an hour to Leuchars during the day and 2/hr evening. The problem from Stagecoach's point of view is that the train services are not regular in their stopping times at Leuchars. Jane Ann Liston pointed out that there are not 4 buses/hr between 8-9am (a fact reiterated by others during the discussion), hence the problem with the 8.44. She said Fife Council will be looking into this.

Lindsay Murray suggested that the bus and rail timetables should be co-ordinated at Leuchars. Douglas King pointed out though that this would have knock-on effects on timing along all the routes - bus and rail. It would be too complex, he said, to juggle all the balls.

She also asked why the through-ticketing arrangements Edinburgh-St Andrews are not available from the on buses or from the Bus Station?

A - in the first case the machinery is incompatible with the present ticketing system, and in the second the conditions imposed on rail ticket franchises are too onerous to be worthwhile - they would have required physical alterations to the bus station offices to accommodate the ticket machinery.

3.2.3. Edinburgh Services - Chris Young wanted to know why the 'express' bus to Edinburgh takes a rather non-express route featuring such delights as a 10 minute tour of Dalgety Bay. John Landon queried the lack of a late-night service from Edinburgh.

A - Unfortunately there are not enough customers for a true direct service so other pickups need to be included. Similarly there is not sufficient demand for a late service. However some of the peak time services are being looked at to see if they could bypass the more roundabout routes.

3.2.4. Passenger Information - Ian Goudie asked if there are any proposals to improve information to passengers - in some parts of town there is a problem knowing which side of the road to wait to get into the centre town.

A - Information at bus stops is provided by Fife Council not the various bus companies using a stop, an effect of the 1985 Transport Act provisions on competition. He noted also that the competition provisions of the act made some apparently sensible co-operation between transport companies very difficult to achieve.

3.2.5. Bus Fleet - Joe Peterson was concerned that Stagecoach is using 'inappropriate' buses on some services - double-deckers through narrow, winding residential streets with the potential for damage to the roadway/kerb/pavement and pollution.

A - The double-deckers' capacity is necessary for the schools contract services; when they are not in use there they have to be used on whatever other Stagecoach services are run. It would be uneconomical to have a second small bus fleet with the others standing idle most of the day.

3.4. Scenic Maps

Mr Rattray gave a brief view of the current state of the map, and asked that some members be delegated to study and comment in detail.

Bill Sangster pointed out that there were difficulties in using the Arms, as shown in the 'draft' map, so Mr Rattray agreed to have them removed.

Ken Fraser, Frank Riddell, Pete Lindsay delegated.

4. Fife Councillors

4.1. Frances Melville

4.1.1. Service Tower at Biomolecular Science Building - noted that a new planning application had been received, asked if the Community Council had considered it in view of previous opposition.

Ian Goudie as convenor of the planning committee replied that opposition previously had been because the tower had been highly visible, which it was not in the new location proposed this time.

4.1.2. Footpath to Craigtoun - invited comments on the decision of East Area Development Committee to hold the developer to an agreement to provide footpath along the length of the Craigtoun Road to the entrance of the Park, rather than allow an alternative route cross-country.

Ian Goudie noted the importance of footpaths and also the principle that developers should stick to the agreements they made in order to gain planning permission, and not receive encouragement try to alter them later.

Joe Peterson asked why the EA Dev Committee had gone against the recommendation of officials, which had been in favour of the variation proposed by the developer? Frances Melville replied that they had felt that a path was a general need on the road, not just for Craigtoun access.

4.1.3. Petheram Bridge - Some improvement works to be undertaken as part of the tourism management plan - feedback on the proposals, when they arrive, very much desired from Community Council.

4.2. Sheila Hill

4.2.1. Development on South of John Knox Road - notes comments from planning committee. Very concerned with the rooflines and the 50m contour limit.

4.2.2. Canongate School Parking - there is to be more attention from the police to parking by parents offloading children to the school.

Murdo Macdonald asked why a narrow strip could be taken out of the school grounds to allow the road to be widened to make a parking bay. Cllr Hill replied that there is no budget available for such work, especially if it sets a precedent for other schools with similar problems.

4.3. Jane Hunter-Blair

4.3.1. Town Centre Traffic - Alan Brian, Head of Roads Service, has viewed South/Bell St and could see there is a bit of a problem. Lindsay Murray described an accident she had witnessed in which an earth-mover coming round the roundabout had rear-ended a car, shunting it onto the zebra crossing.

Chris Lesurf pointed out one possible solution to the 'problem' of zebra crossings - if there were no cars there would be no need for the crossings - pedestrianise the whole centre.

4.3.2. Church Square benches - will be fixed before the Open. Cynthia Tero reminded the meeting that the benches were damaged three months ago - 'in time for the Open' is not an adequate response.

4.3.3. The Town Hall flag - is flying again.

4.3.4. Wheelie Bins - Alfred Place is to get smaller bins that residents may be able to get through their front doors. A step in the right direction towards returning the area to bags, she said.

4.4. Jane Ann Liston

4.4.1. St Andrews in Bloom - facing some problems. The Tourist Board is unable to support secretarially. Members of the public have not come forward to take part, as had been hoped. There is a chance that members of the Preservation Trust and Merchants' Association will take up places.

If the Bloom committee folds the (small) funds it holds will come to Community Council in the hope that it will take over as a 'lead body'.

Joe Peterson suggested that local businesses might sponsor flowerbeds if they were able to advertise alongside.

4.4.2. French Market - awaiting comments on the proposal from the Merchants' Association. If the market goes ahead it will be in September.

4.4.3. Greyfriars Garden - Notes an application to the Common Good Fund for £5,000 towards a higher sum to bid for the garden. As far as she is aware if the money comes from public funds the bid would be limited to the £5,000 of the District Valuer's valuation so applying as part of a higher bid will not be successful. Also the Local Services Committee who would decide the application (which given the sum is to be discussed at full committee and in camera) would probably ask who was to maintain the garden after purchase she warned.

Frank Riddell suggested that rather than buying the garden as that seemed out of reach with the funds we have we should investigate leasing/renting the garden. Murdo Macdonald replied that the Millennium committee had considered it, but there was a feeling against paying someone for the privilege of keeping their garden tidy.

4.4.4. Leuchars and the open - the car park will be closed to local travellers as it will be used by large numbers of passengers moving between the rail/bus link - they are not to wait on the station platform for safety reasons. Local travellers will have to park at a designated area of the airbase and be bussed in to the rail station.

4.4.5. Leuchars staffing hours and services - she has had reply from the Rail Regulator. On the matter of the 8.17 train which has recently disappeared from the timetable a lot of communities are taking action on this inconvenience, as is Iain Smith MSP - a regular rail user. In the mean time she is putting pressure on in the appropriate places to get a bus to meet the 8.44 'replacement'.

<8.20pm Break>

8.5. Planning

(Taken out of usual order as an experiment in reordering the meeting per Gen Purp Ctte report June Appendix A 3)

8.5.3. Byre Theatre Gateway - Archie Strachan commented on the expense of special artworks planned for Abbey Street when the Byre was apparently short of funds for basic completion work.

8.5.4. John Knox Road - Joe Peterson felt Community Council should not oppose any facilities related to Special Needs. There was some discussion about whether developers could be trusted to provide the special needs facilities they promised in applications.

8.5.5. Gateway Centre - Frank Riddell reported that he had been contacted by a Scotsman journalist Andrew Walker who had said that the Gateway Centre on the North Haugh was in financial difficulties, and asked him to comment. It seems that the University had issued a statement denying that it would be adversely affected by any problems faced by the developers. While Frank Riddell had no information as to the actual situation of the Gateway he did note the implications for other golf-related developments if the Gateway could not find sufficient support.

5. Matters Arising.

5.1. Kingask Liaison.

Frances Melville reported that the May meeting had involved a visit to the site to look at the coastal path and the Site of Special Scientific Interest. Trying to persuade the developers that proper presentation of these would be an attraction to Kingask.

Archie Strachan called for Community Council to give every support to the liaison committee over the coastal path, which was backed by Frank Riddell who pointed out that it is a right-of-way.

5.2. Common Good Fund and the Byre Theatre.

Murdo Macdonald asked the Fife Councillors what the current position was, but all they could say was that there was no new development yet. He thought that it is unreasonable for the details of the financial arrangements not to be known. The Fife councillors had asked questions about this but answers from Stuart Allan, head of Law & Admin had not been helpful.

Ken Crichton objected to the Common Good Fund being raided, as he saw it. He asked whether the Fife Councillors on the management committee would vote to accept the money, but Jane Hunter-Blair said it wasn't that simple and the Chair ruled the question 'unfair'.

Murdo Macdonald and others agreed that the completion of the theatre was important, but that the financial detals are a grave concern.

It was agreed that a letter be written to Fife Council asking for details of the proposed loan - Murdo Macdonald, Frank Riddell, Archie Strachan, Cynthia Tero, Pete Lindsay to consult.

Pete Lindsay to write

On the matter of the enquiry from Cupar agreed to meet if they were arranging a meeting with other CGF councils.

5.3. Fête

Lindsay Murray reported that the school made £2,500 before expenses, others £500. The school had been overwhelmed with raffle prizes and will hold a second raffle later in the year.

Pete Lindsay to write & congrat school.

5.4. Loches

In addition to the report in the agenda Frank Riddell noted that John MacDougall Convener of Fife Council will be going to Loches on 14 July in recognition of strength of links.

He also asked that if anyone had accommodations for up to 4 young footballers from Loches at the end of July they contact Mary Freeborn, Chair of the Loches Alliance committee.

Joe Peterson suggested that we should name something for Loches when the opportunity arises.

5.6. Civic Amenity & trial garden waste collections.

Murdo Macdonald emphasised that the key to success of such a scheme would be good advertising.

Jane Ann Liston mentioned that on the Fife Council cross-party Waste & Recycling group the SEPA representative is a St Andrews resident. She also reported the opinion of one Labour councillor on the group that people were not interested in recycling - so there is some work to be done yet within Fife Council. In addition she had been surprised to learn that Dunfermline had a waste paper skip at the landfil site - the impression given previously was that there was no paper recycling in Fife because it was not economic.

Sheila Hill has written asking about the status of the CA site to Morag Wallace, Head of Law & Admin (East)

Pete Lindsay to write to C&WM in favour of the trial.

5.8. Other matters arising

(June 4.2.2.) Shore Bridge pavement - Jane Hunter-Blair had received a further explanation of the concerns over a new pavement or the upstream side of the bridge by the hospital. Roads Service believed it would be dangerous for people crossing the road after crossing the bridge, and that more people would be encouraged to walk across the bridge before crossing the road.

Chris Lesurf pointed out that the vast majority of St Andrews residents lived on the same side of the road as the hospital, and were forced to cross the road twice to go across the bridge on the pavements side, surely a more dangerous situation.

(June 4.3.2.) Gibson House - Sheila Hill announced that the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland would be visiting Gibson House on 4th July.

6. New Business

6.1. Bandstand Volunteers?

If anyone is able to help out with the bandstand concerts on Sunday afternoons through July and August for a couple of hours - we lack any cover for some concerts - please contact Archie Strachan.

No only do we have trouble putting the chairs out and away, but we may not have anywhere to put them soon as our current storage place is under the Pavilion Tearoom which is for sale.

6.2. ASCC AGM

Frank Riddell to attend

6.3. NEF Healthcare Trust - services in St Andrews meeting

Joe Peterson to attend

6.5. RAF Leuchars - freedom of St Andrews march-past

Lindsay Murray, Frank Riddell, Murdo Macdonald to attend

6.6. Gumley Golf

Murdo Macdonald, Joe Peterson to Do Their Bit...

7. Reports from Officers

Matters reported in agenda noted

8. Reports from Committees

8.1. General Purposes

Appendix A.2. Meeting agreed that a secret ballot be taken amongst the whole community council. Discussion on the merits or otherwise of a badge eventually went to a vote:

Badge 4, No Badge 6, Abst 3

Jane Ann Liston hoped that the citation for the award would be in Latin.

Other reports to be held for next month if still relevant.

9. AOCB

9.1. Advertising boards

Cynthia Tero wished to raise a matter to do with these but it was suggested that as we were already over time (9:37pm) it would be better covered in the main meeting next month if she would pass information to the Secretary for New Business.

9.2. Coffee

John Landon recorded his thanks to whoever had organised the coffee at the break.